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I thought the home recording act allowed for 1 backup copy for 'archival purposes'? Does the Home Recording Act not apply here?

Doesn't matter to me, I err on the side of common sense. So long as I'm not selling or giving copies to other people no one has reason to chase me down.

 

Chip I was responding to Profomances statement"Go and talk to a federal judge and ask him what the prospects are for an infringement case for using rendundant drives." when I said I would ask my freind that works for a ferdral judge if he (the judge not the friend)would speak with me. You are correct that one judge does not a legal judgment make...however since he suggested it and I have the possible ability to do so...why not:rolleyespill:

 

When you ask the question, please clarify that said drives are back-ups of original disks, for the sole use in a single system.:winkpill:

 

I will do so Joe...sorry I wasnt clear enough in my post

 

Quick answer - It does not apply.

Karaoke CD+Gs and music CDs are classed seperately under the law as audio recordings.

 

Exactly! ...and there is ample case law to support that position.

 

he said he wants to use the same books for his disc based backup. that is completely logical. he has a second set of originals to cover what got stolen, has them on a hard drive, and has an mp3 copy of the same discs is how i read it, i may have misunderstood, but that is how i read it.
you said we cannot have a redundant backup, but isn't that what a set of mp3 discs copied from originals is? unless is entire library is nothing but the SC gem series, he would need to have copies of the original discs, making it a second backup copy. that was my point.

 

OK, maybe a bit of simplification might help. As far as copies go, you can make and own as many backups as you want. When you buy the disc, you have licensing for single site use. I happen to run original discs because I think they look more professional when laid out, but I could run on all backups, and keep the originals safe and unused if I so desired.

You can use the originals OR backups, but ONLY at one site, and one OR the other. Technically ( and I know this is a ridiculous example, but go with me for simplicity's sake) If you had two players and two amps, and wanted to play the same track on both simultaneously, you would be in violation. This is actually second site use even though both are right there with you.

I'm not speaking of the gray area of media shift, but media to same media backups, and discs in general.

 

What I am saying is I plan on carrying a regular cdg player that also plays MP3+G discs and using my discs as the backup that includes regular CDG's and the GEM series. What good is your backup if you can't have access to them in time of emergency. They are not being used unless the main player breaks down. Right now I don't have such a player so I'll just leave my discs at home until I can afford to pick up one up. Now that I have had time to think about it, It would violate the agreement in the license of the GEM series.

 

ONLY if the second site is also a separate venue - otherwise you are simply describing a specific type of closed circuit application and a single performance of the work.

For example, delivery of a program simultaneously to 2 differrent wings of a school building. Despite two copies being required to effect a simultaneous viewing/listening experience, the legal ramifications are that no infirngement has occurred since the result is the same as had you made the presentation consecutively using only one copy.

 

Danny, please clarify. Does the Gem agreement say that you can't use backups?

 

Nope. You may have two connected SYSTEMS using ONE disc, but if you are using the original disc and a COPY at the same time in two systems, it is multi-site use. Distance between the two is not relevant.

" since the result is the same as had you made the presentation consecutively using only one copy"

If a second disc was REQUIRED to make the presentation, then the result is NOT the same as if you used one.

 

Joe, directly from my license agreement for the GEM series:

"MEDIA-SHIFTING POLICY. You may not shift the Content of the Original Media to any Non-Original Medium unless you are in compliance with our media-shifting policy. Provided that such media-shifting is otherwise in compliance with the laws of the United States or Canada (as applicable), you may shift the Content stored on each of the Original Media to ONE Non-Original Medium of your choice. You must maintain possession of the Original Media whose Content you have shifted during the entire time the Content is stored on the Non-Original Medium. While the Content has been shifted, you may not use the Original Media for any purpose, commercial or otherwise. If you desire to shift the Content of any of the Original Media to more than one Non-Original Medium, you must acquire one or more additional original discs, so that you maintain a 1-to-1 relationship between original discs and the non-original media. For example, if you want to store the Content of a disc on three hard drives, you must acquire and maintain three original discs.
This media-shifting policy operates only to state the terms under which we tolerate media-shifting."

I believe that while this does not specify that you may not use back-ups, it does state that only ONE content shift may be executed. I'm guessing that though, technically, a back-up would not be a content shift, it would be allowable for use as a back-up only if the original shifted media content should cease to exist, such as a hard drive failure or other data catastrophe.

 

Thanks, Sand. You are correct, there is nothing that says the product can't be backed up.

Also. while it says only one content SHIFT can be executed ( **I'll get back to that), there is nothing there limiting backup copies with no shift- disc to disc. This means that while you SHIFT to PC, you may also make disc backups.

**: Since no karaoke company has the legal right to give permission to shift media ( as noted by both SC and Chartbuster), they also have no right to limit how often it's done, whether it's in the agreement or not. This has no effect on me, so I don't care, and no need to debate it. Believe it or not as you see fit, and use the info as you will- hopefully to your benefit.

As long as it's single use/single site I don't see any problems with backing up the discs.

 

Wait a sec... I thought the question was about whether or not you could use the back-ups.

I also think that the content shift from the original media to ONE non original media pretty much makes your original media your back-up as it can't be used while the content shifted files are being used. The Non-Original media is "of your choice". I choose hard drive, you choose CDr. You have two sets - operational and back-up. If you copy your operational discs, which are the content shifted versions, you couldn't use a copy of them as operational unless the first (allowed) set were destroyed or otherwise rendered inoperative. The maintenance of a 1:1 ratio as described would make that the only solution that would keep you in compliance with the media shifting policy.

I have off site, internet backup of all files on my system. I don't put any mp3+g files on the fixed/internal hard drive on my show pc. The content shifted media is on a separate external drive. That drive is backed up whenever it is connected to my home based system. If that drive were to become damaged and unusable, I'd get another and restore those files to the drive from my backups. The backups would never be used unless the files from the original content shift were lost.

I would never see the need to make disc backups of discs. I'm backing up my hard-drive. My discs aren't being used, and as a last resort, if I lost my content shifted data, I could always go back to the original media and redo the shift.

If you were to acquire the GEM series (I understand why you won't) and you chose to shift said content to CDr and then use those discs for your show, you'd still be in compliance.

Your comment about the legal right of the manufacturers to permit media shifting kind of make this a moot point. If they can't grant permission, they can't limit the number of times you can do something they can't permit you to do.

But again, I'm trying to understand whether you are distinguishing use of the back-ups or the actual production of the back-ups themselves.

I would request a clarification of this particular point from Kurt or Debi as their firms as represented here have an extremely similar Media Shifting Policy.

 

I was unclear. Backups are MADE to be used if neccesary, so yes- you can use the backups that you are also allowed to make.

If you wish to double check, I would suggest a legal source over any mfr. for factual and unbiased information. No knock on anyone. . I would do this in ANY situation in regard to the usage of ANY product for ANY reason.

 

Joe, this is not broadcasting and your technical interpretation of the wiring falls outside the scope of the pertitent legal issue which is: "does the chosen mode of performance damage the copyright holder?" It does not.

In fact, to make your point you are changing the pertinent facts: the performance is licensed to the entirety of the audience in attendance, a 2nd disc is not required to effect the perofrmance, nor does it multiply the performance. It simply produces a more convenient performance.

SC for example, has the burden to show that the mode of performance (computer) damages their trademark. Yet, they can't do that without first establishing a copyright violation hence, no audit - no case.

 

No matter what happened then, you always learn from your mistakes and you can never go back. It takes a lot of courage to even make a statement such as yours, as you will be criticized or commended on any of your comments. It just depends in who is commenting as we all have our opinions. Hang in there and we appreciate the fact that you did get totally legal! I assure you it will pay off in the long run.