Am I the only one slightly suspicious of Managing Communities?

The site as well as the ifroggy network in general? I admit I haven't read the book Mr O Keefe published and I do like reading and commenting on the articles on Managing Communities.com, but I've always been suspicious about how well tested much of the advice is.

That's not trying to be harsh, just accurate based on the stats of the forums in the network. Community Admins is kind of completely dead for a forum supposedly run for six years by an expert in community management, and many of the others haven't had posts in days or have significant amounts of time with absolutely no one online. When a forum which is nearly ten years old averages only about 20 posts a day, is that really a well run forum?

And that's my problem with the whole thing. Is Patrick O Keefe truly qualified to be handing out advice on community management if he seemingly can't put any of it to work on keeping his own communities active? It's like all the business related books written by people with no experience in business, if I wanted to know how to become successful I'm going to read one by someone with a track record like maybe the former Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or one of the investors on Dragon's Den.

That's why I personally don't ever plan to write about forum management professionally or boast about until at I am at least able to prove my qualifications via a successful big board forum with a high amount of daily active and maybe enough fame for a Wikipedia page or something. If I ever did decide to buy a book about forum management, I'd honestly be more interested in one by someone like Shawn Hogan of Digitalpoint or the people who run Off Topic.com or Gaia Online or IGN. People with a record of running a forum with a huge amount of original content, millions of posts and members, some kind of actual fame and some proven experience in the field.

Because I'm sorry, I don't count a forum with less than 82 posts a day, or one with no posts in the last month and a half as a success story.

Am I the only one who thinks this? Am I being too harsh on the network and its owner by expecting big board level activity? At what point is a forum a qualified success and its owner a 'guru'?

 

While I haven't read the book myself, I'd say it would be pretty tough to write a forum management book that actually had anything specific.

My experience isn't massive (I've only ever started/run a single forum), I do know that if you aren't constantly changing and adapting then users will lose interest.

Digital Point was successful because we had a large user base before we opened a forum (we needed a support venue for existing customers of our products and tools). And over the years we've pioneered a ton of things that have become mainstream as other sites have mimicked them...

2004 - I had the idea of AdSense revenue sharing. Which was widely copied and the idea was even adopted by Google: https://developers.google.com/adsense/host/revenuesharing
2005 - I had the idea of feeding in the latest blog topics from user's blogs. It started in signatures, but quickly become "Recent Blog" on people's profiles that is so popular now.
2005 - Automatically see where in the world users are based on their IP.
2006 - I borrowed the idea of the old Digg Spy and applied it to forums with our Spy thingie.
2009 - Our marketplace system.
2010 - Replaced vBulletin 4's search system with a Sphinx-based system.
2010 - Locate your lost or stolen computer.
2010 - Digital Point Ads
2010 - Our Instant Pay system.
2011 - True Country

The point is that if you aren't creating new things and solving problems for users (or inventing new things), they will grow bored... and you can't put that into a book/formula beyond generalizations.

That of course doesn't factor in that you need someone technical with hardware and Linux (or whatever operating system you use), and you get to deal with massive amounts of spam, DDoS attacks, etc.

I do probably have an unfair(ish) advantage over most in that I'm the idea guy, but I also have the programming expertise to build my ideas quickly. And I'm also very proficient with databases, how to tune them, Linux, etc. (I designed and built our cluster myself)

 

@CM30 I think it's the same issue as the SEO/hosting business. People want to preach about success, and tell it to others, without any prove of any success. Same thing with the weight lost "pills industry" and weight gimmics. Some people are spot on with the advice that they give others, where others its just plain bullshit. I've read some of the articles, and I agree with some of them. I wouldn't say it's a scam so to say because why would SkimLinks partner up with him if his knowledge wasn't correct? That would just seem fishy to me though.

 

I'm not saying his articles are wrong, I often agree with them. It's just that I'm not sure the whole expert thing is a very accurate description of it because most of what is said is just common sense. I'm kind of thinking the idea of the network being seen as a major success or the owner a guru is just a little overblown and possibly exaggerated because most of the sites used as examples just... aren't that successful.

If I get hell for the last point (them not being majorly successful), it's because while the stats are impressive and the content is good, I think nearly anyone could reach that level given ten years of dedication. Your virtual pet site is arguably more successful at present than any of them simply because in ten years it'd probably be about four times as active as Photoshop forums or phpbb hacks or whatever else. I'd say not having a big board in ten years for such major topics is kind of actually rather unimpressive.

But maybe my standards are too high.

 

The book is actually really good, you should read it. I have worked with Patrick years ago (karateforums.com was one of the first communities I joined) and he does know his stuff. I agree that not all communities are having a ton of activity right now, but they are well managed and useful. And the backstage work is indeed impressive. I had A LOT to learn from being a mod on KF and then on phpBBhacks and some of the ideas really rubbed off on me.

I wouldn't personally go to have Gaia as an example of success, since for me success means QUALITY, not just quantity. I could create the biggest admin forum in the world in weeks, if I wanted to squander the money on buying out my competition and paying for a lot of junk posting, to have the 'numbers'. A community is not good just cause it's active, it's good when it provides good quality content. I'd rather keep on getting 60 posts a day as we're getting now and have most of them of exemplary quality, than amass crap or allowing for it to be posted. Take into account that Gaia has quite some years behind, so you can't really compete with this.

Take the ideas from the site and the books, they are most common sense, but, even so, you'd be shocked to see how many admins don't take them into account. I have written a free forum admin book to help people understand some of the 'basics' and still many make irreparable mistakes. Starting a forum in 2012 is VERY HARD, if you're messing up, you're making it even harder.

 

I bought Patrick's book a couple months back and still haven't read the whole thing. I lost interest after the first few chapters mainly because it was stuff I already know/have been doing. I don't say that to slight Patrick but it's just a sort of been there done that thing for me. If I read more of it there might something more interest.

The ManagingCommunities.com blog is pretty good. Patrick always thinks situations out rather than being reactionary as I sometimes am with my community. Even if I don't pick up much from the book I'm happy to support one of my favorite bloggers.

 

I've been a fan of @iFroggy for years and yes some of the stuff in his managing online forums book may seem "obvious" to the OP but it's written in a way that anyone can come along and get a good idea on running a successful forum.
I also agree that his blog that @Dan Hutter linked to is constantly full of fresh solid info on running a forum, well worth my time to stop by and read them.
He also recently released a new monetizing your forum free book, I can't knock a guy for giving out good info year and year.

 

I agree almost entirely with this, but I do think there's a catch people need to be aware of.

People come to forums for a reason. To interact with people. To be part of a community. Having a lot of information available and lots of quality posts is nice, but you also need regular activity to make a successful forum.

That doesn't mean I hate forums with intelligent discussion and a low tolerance for spam or fairly low activity, but it does mean I expect to see at least daily activity of some sort. 60 posts a day is fine, but 0 posts a day isn't. Nor is just 1 post a day. Why? Because it's not really a community if it's completely dead. A one person community is basically a blog.

Is Gaia Online's content good? No idea, I don't visit the site and I don't care too. But I consider something like Sitepoint or Web Hosting Talk or the like a good example of a community. They're active, they have a lot of useful information posted daily and if you went there with a question you'd get an answer. That's what a community is about.

Is a forum really 'well managed' if it hasn't got any activity for weeks?

But hey, I'm always critical of people's credentials, I like people to show that they can put their skills to use in practical situations as well as write about them.

 

Hey all. It was interesting to read through these posts. I have always accepted that when you take the step of sharing what you know - when you write a book, when you step on stage to speak - you are essentially saying "here is what I know - judge me." It's a tough spot to put yourself in and it is a vulnerable position. I'm happy to provide my thoughts here, even if it is a bit awkward to be called out individually.

I think that different people define success in different ways. A successful forum is not simply what you say it is. Numbers are great, but being the biggest, being the most active - activity in general - these are not necessarily the goals of all. They are not necessarily indicative of anything as it pertains to a particular person or manager. I don't care about numbers. I care about culture. I want to create great experiences and great environments. That's what I am passionate about - not numbers. Others may have different goals and that is fine.

Just to clarify a couple of facts: I run three forums right now. KarateForums.com, PhotoshopForums.com and CommunityAdmins.com. I have run others in the past. You are correct to say that CA is not active, but "many of the others haven't had posts in days or have significant amounts of time with absolutely no one online" is inaccurate. CA is a laid back community. It is there for whoever wants to use it. I'm comfortable with that. When CA began, I started it because I wanted to chat about the practice with others. And whatever happened from that, happened. That's it. If I wanted it to be more than that, then it would be. I honestly feel bad mentioning CA here on AT because I would never ordinarily do that. Not because @Brandon would care, but just out of respect for him, on his site.

At the end of the day, how you view my communities is not really my concern because I am not catering to you - I am catering to my members.

Sometimes, when you speak from experience, people take it as a threat, as if you are challenging them and their knowledge. Like, "how dare you speak about a topic I also know about?" But, all I have ever done is shared what I know. I don't "boast." What I share is based on my experience managing online communities for 12 years and moderating them for even longer. I don't refer to myself as an "expert," a "guru" or any of that nonsense. That is never for me to say. However, what I can say is that I have a uniquely deep level of experience that allows me to confidently speak about this space with anyone, from no experience to people with more experience than me. And I do so, on a regular basis.

I've only shared what I know and gave people a blueprint. I did my time to earn the experience that allows me to share my thoughts. When my book came out, I had already been doing this for 8 years. I've always said that, with online community, rarely is there one way - there are often multiple ways to do something. I have always been respectful of the knowledge of others and I continually learn, because that is the only way to get better.

I would love for Mr. Hogan ( @digitalpoint ) to write a book. I'm sure he has some insane stories and incredible experience to share that we can all learn from and grow. Sometimes people take things weird, like if you write a book, you are saying that you are the only one who knows about something. It's hard to learn from that perspective. We need more people sharing their experience - not less. It's not a competition between me, Mr. Hogan... or anyone else. We all need to help each other. If you are more interested in what he has to say than me - that's totally cool. I respect that.

However, some of the comments made in this thread are, perhaps, a little personal. Suggesting I don't have "some proven experience" or comparing my writing to that of people with "no experience" writing business books. Using the word "scam." These are comments that I myself am careful not to use without a great deal of thought. I don't know what I might have done to you guys. Heh. Jokes aside, ethics and integrity are foremost to me. I don't know how long you have been following my work, but the only thing I've ever tried to sell anyone is a book, that took 5 years to finish, for $15. Do the math on that. I'm not rolling in royalties. And I've always said that you don't need to buy the book. If I'm a scammer, I must just be the worst one ever. As an aside, I love Skimlinks. But, I don't need them to legitimize my work - they wanted me to legitimize the idea they had.

At the end of the day, I've never told anyone to listen to me. No one has to read my book. No one has to read my blog. And they can still be the most successful forum manager in the world. I have been able to help many people, both solo practitioners and people running community for large companies and, perhaps, some of the brands you use yourself. People with 6 million posts, 10 million posts, more... people that started those communities and have run them since day 1. For me, that is the validation of my efforts and that is what matters to me - when practitioners tell me that I have helped them. I've helped people like Ramona ( @dojo ) and Brandon and they, in turn, have helped me. I learn from everyone. I care a lot about this space. I rep community, but I rep forums and I've been doing it for a long time.

Most people probably don't realize how hard it was to get a book about forums published by a good sized publisher. Literally, 99 publishers said no. Why? Because books about community from 1998-2000 sold poorly and no one wanted to even take a chance on forums. I literally had an editor at one of the biggest publishers tell me she loved it, but couldn't get it past her board because of those past sales numbers, 6-7 years before me. We kept going and, in the end, every Barnes & Noble in the country, at one time, had a book called "Managing Online Forums" on its shelves. That means something, I believe, and not just to me. I'd like to think that my work has helped the space - because the space has helped me and I believe in it.

The funny thing about common sense is that it is only common when you know it. And sometimes, even when people think they do, they need to dig a little deeper. For all the speaking I do, on the blog and in person, I also do a lot of listening.

Thanks,

Patrick

 

Ya, your standards seem very high, because even Pastors write books about God and make a lot of money. I won't knock Patrick because he knows what he's doing, you can be a guru, and have some forums that aren't active, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't write about your experiences and help others - which I see is happening now, his blog is for forum owners to read, and learn, and then possibly succeed There's nothin wrong with that.

Since you think he's wrong for doing so, why not write your own blog and talk about your own experiences? Perhaps you can inspire people just like him. It's an open water game. And I believe @iFroggy knows exactly what he's doing or he wouldn't be writing blog posts, and ebooks based around online communities. It's exactly a good thing because it encourages a lot of people to work.

 

I guess I agree with this. However, I do admittedly find it somewhat strange how people can be fine with a forum getting just one or two posts a day or even less, given that I've always thought a community has to well, have a community to be 'successful'. I'm not sure how you can be successful with a forum if there isn't at least two people posting regularly, that's always struck me as more of a blog.

You can mention Community Admins here as far I know, or at least put it in your signature. Admin Talk isn't The Admin Zone, they don't hate or fear competition to the point they try and block all mention of it (see how dojo has a link to Top Admin in her signature).

I do admit I was likely wrong about the others having significant amount of times with no one online or posts in days, but I was going by the activity level i witnessed when I browsed all three forums. Maybe it's lower because I'm from the UK and a significant amount of forums mainly seem to get US based members, the time zone might have made a difference.

Okay. I didn't take anything you said as a threat, I was just slightly skeptical of the hype. I do think there should be a bit more skepticism online outside the science and martial arts communities, since it does seem like in general a lot of forums are a bit too willing to accept anything and everything nowadays without questioning it. Maybe it's because in the gaming sphere too much misinformation gets passed around and I'm somewhat skeptical of everything as a result, especially when it seems like journalists are taking anything from people on twitter to forum posts to blog articles as being reliable evidence.

I agree entirely with this.

I am not trying to be harsh or trying to be overly personal, nor suggesting you're a scammer. I apologise if you took it that way.

I do have to say though that given how forum management has no degrees, no qualifications, no accrediting body or any kind of professional organisation to say what's the best thing to do and whether someone knows what they're on about, that people do have to be slightly skeptical about anything published about the topic.

I'm cautious because let's face it, it's a field that could theoretically be a perfect match for scammers and con artists. And I've been around enough admin and webmaster related sites that I always have to pick out the actual useful information among the sea of fluff content posted by 'seo specialists' and marketers, so experience is all I can fall back on here.

But don't worry about it, you're not a scammer. You do have experience.

Not sure what to say in regards to this statement other than 'I agree entirely'.

I understand what you mean. Publishing a book is extremely difficult to do, especially in a new field, with few other books as competition. It's extremely impressive you actually got your book published by a proper publishing company and I congratulate you for that.

Glad that you've replied and shared your thoughts.

Also, I read Managing Communities fairly often, the articles are usually pretty informative.

Oh, and I don't think Patrick is wrong for writing about his experiences, I'm just skeptical of things like this based on past experiences.